Really, Tom. Who would you expect to track the interests, concerns and problems of atheists? The Catholic Youth Organization? The Daughters of Job?

I know what their agenda is.

O, tell us, All-Seeing and All-Knowing One, Who can tellest even such a lowly one as i what it is she thinkest before the thought is formed in her unworthy brain...

Has it ever occurred to you that these are people who have been driven to distraction by a society that throws God at them all the time? That these are people with a legitimate religious outlook who are fed up to their eyeballs? I can't go anywhere without God being thrown in my face four or five times a day. And this is -- lest I hear that remark about proper manners in other people's houses -- my country too. You go on ad nauseam about the Left-wing Takeover of our nation's educational system. They say "under God" every day in classrooms around the nation. I suppose this means nothing -- only words. In which case the non-believers are the only ones thinking about what they're saying, which, if true, is both scary and sad. (Actually, I don't kick over the Pledge of Allegiance. I just maintain a dignified silence during the "under God" part and recite it as it was originally written. :P )

I'm sorry, but these people are not being abused by society.

However would you know? My son had rocks thrown at him in the name of Christianity, and all he ever did to deserve it was to say that he didn't believe in God. Not that belief was wrong, or stupid, but that he didn't share it. (I know because I heard the conversation. It was in front of my house and the window was open.) Fortunately, there were no potential major league pitchers among the rock throwers, and I can be rather fleet of foot.

Discrimination encourages the idea that some people are more worthy of attack than others.

Part of me is loving this, though. "If you can't back it up, I say it's false. Oh... you can back it up. Well... it doesn't count! These people are irrelevant! They consulted lawyers, and some of them even are lawyers!!!" [Quick Quiz: Name several prominent lawyers from American history. Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Patrick Henry, JQ Adams, Marshall, Lincoln...] Pish and tosh. There are three ways to get something on the public record in this country: in the courts (which have standards of evidence), in the media (which say they do), and in a memoir (which can say the grass is orchid and it may be considered artistic license). People who go through the courts are at least looking at a way to make a statement with some kind of standard behind it.

Clifford Grambo also falls into this category [relevant people], but as in many of the cases you referenced, it seems to be less a case of official BSA policy and more a case of these kids running across Scout Leaders who were unusually oddball or fundamentalist in their beliefs.

What part of Larry Otto's sworn deposition about BSA policy, with counsel present, including but not limited to a BSA lawyer sent out to Portland from New York, did you not understand? This part?

Q. If I said to you I am an Atheist, would I be eligible to be a leader in the Boy Scout movement?
A. No.
Q. If I said I were an Atheist, would I be eligible to be a member of the Boy Scouts?
A. No.
Q. And if I were to say I was an agnostic, would I be eligible to be a leader of the Boy Scouts?
A. No.
Q. If I said I were an agnostic, would I be eligible to be a scout?
A. No.
Q. When I use the term Scout I presume we understand Cub or Explorer, regular Scout or anything. I am not eligible to participate in the movement in any capacity; is that right?
A. If you refuse to acknowledge a duty to God you cannot be a member.

That establishes intent to discriminate at an organizational level. This part?

Q. Well, is a Universalist Unitarian entitled to be a member of the Boy Scouts?
A. Apparently they cannot accept the definition of ìduty to god. Therefore no.

That establishes that other religious groups besides "radical atheists" are targets. Maybe this part...

Q. When you say allowed to put out flyers what do you mean by that? I do not understand. You can mail flyers. I suppose you can - what do you mean, giving out flyers? You can stand out in from of the school..
A. It would vary from school to school.
Q. And based upon your knowledge and experience, what are the variations?
A. In some schools, we are permitted to talk to the young people in the classroom and hand a flyer to them.
Q. Is that for purposes of trying to solcit their membership in Scouts?
A. No. It ís for purposes of informing them about a meeting where they can find out about scouting.
Q. Is the end result of giving them information for the purposes of part of your abiltiy to reach people and solicit them to become members?
A. If they chose to become members, yes.
Q. Well, but I am talking about your intent. The purpose to solicit.
A. Sure. Sure.

That establishes an intent to solicit membership in a public school during school hours without the presence or consent of the parents. Or this part...

Q. Scouts press release says; Some people would maintain that God is a tree, a rock or a stream. Would a person believing in such be eligible to be a member of Scouting?
A. No.

That establishes that the BSA will also discriminate against animists, and some forms of Buddhism and Wicca, which I remind you the US Army accepts as a religion. Then it must be this part!

Q. .... it is the interpretation that the Boy Scouts of America and its constituent council use to enforce policy on religion?
A. It is consistently referred to in all of our literature, yes.
Q. But it is the basis of your enforcement of the membership policy?
A. Yes.
Q.Now, I take it, because of that, you are saying, are you not, that Reminton Powell, as an Atheist, cannot be the best kind of citizen?
A. That ís the position of the Boy Scouts of America, yes.

And that is where my second-class citizen child gets rocks thrown at him and the lovely BSA insults my family and several of my friends. But that's OK, because a Scout Is Kind, so they must set the standard. It says so in their book.

The link to the transcript of the deposition is in one of the previous posts. It's all there.

But of course, because it was not posted on a website that normally airs conservative viewpoints, and that supports atheist viewpoints, this is not valid. An interesting criterion for evaluation, that the source be palatable to the reader. I will have to remember that little labor-saving device. That means that 95% of the things you post in support of your arguments are invalid because I don't like their source, which will save me having to read them! Thanks!

I'm sorry to hear that one of the children in your middle school is gravely ill. It must be terrible for the family, though I don't know where it comes into this discussion, unless you're introducing the old "There are no atheists in foxholes" canard. I can assure you, there are many, many people who can and do face tragic situations without resorting to a deity that they don't believe in. That's called "having the courage of your convictions".

But suppose they are atheists. Would that mean you wouldn't contribute (voluntarily, of course) to a fund to help the family? Would you not visit? Would you curse them from the roadside? Would you invite them to join a community organization for support and personal growth, only to recind the invitation on account of their religion? Would you withhold sympathy because they were unbelievers and therefore somehow odd and extreme and evil and unworthy? No? I didn't think so.

So why is the position of the atheists so difficult for you to understand? We get hammered every day, on a personal issue that has caused more brutality and bloodshed in the history of the world than taxes ever did. I don't know a single atheist who seeks to make converts, but I know a lot who wish that believers could keep their personal faith, well, personal. Some of us get so fed up, we take it to court, after which we get called all kinds of names, and have all kinds of motives impuned to our exasperation. We feel threatened when national political figures say things like, "No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."

Btw, all Americans will be required to stop work five times a day and bow to Mecca and pray starting on Monday. Those of us who are not Muslims are expected to shut up and be polite. If you don't pray, maybe nothing will happen to you, or maybe someone will throw rocks at your kid, but you definitely should not be considered a citizen or a patriot.

Just kidding. Do you get it yet?

Regards--
Mary Anne