re: Hydrogen problems are real

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re: Hydrogen problems are real

EnergyExpert — 1/25/2007 6:10:54 AM (archived)

Any portable energy source other then nuclear is an energy carrier. The key is the environment impact and supply of it.

As this article shows biofuel uses more petroleum then it returns in energy. Its better for the environment to just burn the gas in your tank.

http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/papers/patzek/CRPS416-Patzek-Web.pdf

They key about hydrogen is that is possible to produce where its needed. You won't be shipping it far as with other fuels. And is environment impact is a function of where you get your power from.

The whole thread (132 posts)

Robert Zubrin blasts the "Hydrogen Economy" - nick hoffman - 1/23/2007 6:19:44 AM
- Zubrin's folly - EnergyExpert - 2/3/2007 5:36:31 PM
  - Single-Seat Cars Could Reduce Fuel Consumption by 75 Percent - SDF - 2/3/2007 6:56:47 PM
    - re: Single-Seat Cars Could Reduce Fuel Consumption by 75 Percent - EnergyExpert - 2/3/2007 7:37:43 PM
      - I guarantee you, hydrogen is not feasible. (n/t) - SDF - 2/3/2007 8:59:06 PM
        
        Not if its done the way the aerospace industry does it. - EnergyExpert - 2/5/2007 5:22:09 AM
        
        Here is where you are wrong.... - SDF - 2/5/2007 6:47:26 AM
        
        Again, you don;t get it. - EnergyExpert - 2/5/2007 8:03:31 AM
        
        You're losing every argument. - SDF - 2/5/2007 4:28:07 PM
        
        Nope, You failed to make your case - EnergyExpert - 2/5/2007 6:40:42 PM
        
        I've totally made my case - SDF - 2/5/2007 10:22:19 PM
        
        The Decline of Aerospace Engineering - EnergyExpert - 2/6/2007 4:56:08 PM
        
        Do you have any idea how many 2-MW wind turbines it would take to produce enough hydrogen for your plan? - SDF - 2/6/2007 6:42:13 PM
        
        Why use 2mw whne 5 mw are available? - EnergyExpert - 2/6/2007 8:52:28 PM
        
        You didn't answer my question - SDF - 2/6/2007 10:46:35 PM
        
        re: You didn't answer my question - EnergyExpert - 2/7/2007 4:51:33 AM
        
        Once again.... - Yeti - 2/7/2007 11:48:25 PM
        
        Wind energy is a red herring. - SDF - 2/8/2007 6:03:56 AM
        
        You've made a couple interesting points. - SDF - 2/7/2007 6:03:08 AM
        
        re: You've made a couple interesting points. - EnergyExpert - 2/7/2007 5:25:31 PM
        
        I'm pessimistic about your scenario. - SDF - 2/7/2007 11:43:03 PM
        
        Any why oppose something that would make your plan more feasible? - SDF - 2/7/2007 6:14:54 AM
        
        Another point in my favor - SDF - 2/7/2007 6:40:29 AM
    - Sorry, but I believe a nail this big requires a hammer of sufficient size. (n/t) - SDF - 2/3/2007 6:58:49 PM
      - Make them flex-fueled just as Zubrin suggests. - SDF - 2/3/2007 7:13:32 PM
        
        re: Make them flex-fueled just as Zubrin suggests. - EnergyExpert - 2/3/2007 7:40:28 PM
        
        We could start with a 10% ethanol in gasoline mixture - SDF - 2/3/2007 11:21:51 PM
        
        re: We could start with a 10% ethanol in gasoline mixture - EnergyExpert - 2/4/2007 10:41:05 PM
        
        And then reduce the average weight of vehicles on the road - SDF - 2/4/2007 9:27:25 PM
        
        Formula correction - SDF - 2/5/2007 4:48:25 AM
        
        HTML preview didn't display that properly - SDF - 2/5/2007 4:50:56 AM
        
        Socialist solutions - EnergyExpert - 2/4/2007 10:59:23 PM
        
        A real engineer goes for the solution. (n/t) - SDF - 2/4/2007 11:50:36 PM
        
        And Socialists force them on people (NT) (n/t) - EnergyExpert - 2/5/2007 1:56:33 AM
        
        When there is only one or two solutions available, you can't argue socialism. - SDF - 2/5/2007 4:13:10 AM
        
        You could put it in a more agreeable context. - SDF - 2/5/2007 1:30:38 AM
        
        re: You could put it in a more agreeable context. - EnergyExpert - 2/5/2007 2:01:48 AM
        
        One more layer of beaurocracy isn't going to make us socialist. - SDF - 2/5/2007 4:01:39 AM
        
        rYou could have any car you want, as long as it uses ethanol and has only a single seat... - EnergyExpert - 2/5/2007 4:56:05 AM
        
        God, it's like teaching algebra to someone with grade 4 math skills - SDF - 2/5/2007 5:20:54 AM
        
        Yes, you know NOTHING about how the auto industry worlks. (NT) (n/t) - EnergyExpert - 2/5/2007 7:41:41 AM
- Hydrogen problems are real - Sawyer - 1/24/2007 3:40:18 PM
  - re: Hydrogen problems are real - EnergyExpert - 1/25/2007 6:10:54 AM
    - re:They key about hydrogen is that is possible to produce where its needed - SteveS - 1/25/2007 6:37:04 PM
      - re: re:They key about hydrogen is that is possible to produce where its needed - EnergyExpert - 1/25/2007 11:16:27 PM
        
        Producing hydrogen locally - nick hoffman - 1/26/2007 7:38:45 AM
        
        re: Producing hydrogen locally - EnergyExpert - 1/26/2007 6:35:48 PM
        
        re: Producing hydrogen locally - Yeti - 1/30/2007 8:18:01 PM
        
        re: Producing hydrogen locally - EnergyExpert - 1/30/2007 10:15:33 PM
        
        My My. It just doesn't get any better - Yeti - 1/30/2007 11:15:28 PM
        
        re: My My. It just doesn't get any better - EnergyExpert - 1/31/2007 5:23:22 PM
        
        re: My My. It just doesn't get any better - Yeti - 1/31/2007 5:49:09 PM
        
        re: My My. It just doesn't get any better - EnergyExpert - 1/31/2007 6:41:58 PM
- re: Robert Zubrin blasts the "Hydrogen Economy" - Energy_Expert - 1/23/2007 11:06:37 PM
  - 2 Corrections - M.A.E. - 1/25/2007 11:13:55 PM
    - re: 2 Corrections - EnergyExpert - 1/26/2007 6:37:47 PM
  - You should get your facts straight before you write such an emphatic comment - Fact Checking Yeti - 1/24/2007 10:28:36 PM
    - re: You should get your facts straight before you write such an emphatic comment - EnergyExpert - 1/25/2007 5:58:29 AM
      - re: you should read TFA before you post it as support for what you have said. - Bemused Yeti - 1/29/2007 8:47:36 PM
        
        re: you should read TFA before you post it as support for what you have said. - EnergyExpert - 1/30/2007 8:49:08 AM
        
        Again, read TFA before you use it to bolster your bluster - Laughing Yeti - 1/30/2007 5:06:03 PM
        
        re: Again, read TFA before you use it to bolster your bluster - EnergyExpert - 1/30/2007 10:18:34 PM
        
        re: Again, read TFA before you use it to bolster your bluster - Yeti - 1/30/2007 11:30:08 PM
        
        Further on Newcomb and the flying machines. - Robert Clark - 1/31/2007 3:35:44 AM
        
        re: Further on Newcomb and the flying machines. - EnergyExpert - 1/31/2007 5:32:09 PM
        
        The link gives a free full-text version from the Gutenberg Project. (n/t) - Robert Clark - 1/31/2007 6:02:33 PM
        
        re: The link gives a free full-text version from the Gutenberg Project. - EnergyExpert - 1/31/2007 6:48:42 PM
        
        re: 2 things - Yeti - 1/31/2007 4:30:16 AM
        
        re: 2 things - EnergyExpert - 1/31/2007 5:40:40 PM
        
        re: 2 things - Yeti - 1/31/2007 5:55:03 PM
        
        re: 2 things - EnergyExpert - 1/31/2007 6:44:24 PM
        
        It wasn't just Newcomb who was skeptical. - Robert Clark - 1/31/2007 3:09:54 PM
        
        re: It wasn't just Newcomb who was skeptical. - Yeti - 1/31/2007 6:00:58 PM
        
        About Newcomb and the flying machines. - Robert Clark - 1/30/2007 2:36:21 AM
        
        last part of post truncated for some reason - Yeti - 1/29/2007 8:50:35 PM
      - re: You should get your facts straight before you write such an emphatic comment - Chris Vancil - 1/25/2007 9:22:48 AM
        
        You need to learn about standards for research... - EnergyExpert - 1/25/2007 3:45:17 PM
        
        re: I wasn't arguing it was a good primary. Only you were wrong about how it works. (n/t) - Chris Vancil - 1/25/2007 9:23:18 PM
        
        Back tracking are we??? - EnergyExpert - 1/25/2007 11:04:41 PM
        
        re: No. At least I'm not. How about you? - Chris Vancil - 1/26/2007 7:57:24 AM
        
        A rose is a rose - EnergyExpert - 1/26/2007 6:39:10 PM
  - Robert Zubrin is an aerospace engineer like me. - SDF - 1/24/2007 3:22:47 AM
    - 84mpg VW Lupo - RobVG - 1/28/2007 7:51:21 PM
      - Wow, probably seats 4 people too. (n/t) - SDF - 2/3/2007 7:31:39 PM
    - re: Robert Zubrin is an aerospace engineer like me. - EnergyExpert - 1/25/2007 6:02:41 AM
      - 3-wheels - nick hoffman - 1/26/2007 8:07:31 AM
        
        re: 3-wheels - EnergyExpert - 1/26/2007 6:43:00 PM
        
        Looks aren't the problem. Carmakers don't have the guts to market them. - SDF - 1/27/2007 11:27:11 PM
        
        re: Looks aren't the problem. Carmakers don't have the guts to market them. - EnergyExpert - 1/28/2007 9:05:17 PM
        
        If it takes billions to take a car to market, why do I see small startups making roadworthy cars? (n/t) - SDF - 1/29/2007 4:00:47 AM
        
        Custome cars versus mass production - EnergyExpert - 1/29/2007 4:52:13 PM
        
        I dunno man. - SDF - 1/31/2007 2:00:02 AM
        
        re: I dunno man. - EnergyExpert - 1/31/2007 6:00:14 PM
        
        LOL. So the obvious question is.... - SDF - 2/1/2007 12:10:57 AM
        
        So they make a prototype. They've all made prototypes. - SDF - 1/27/2007 11:30:49 PM
      - re: Robert Zubrin is an aerospace engineer like me. - SDF - 1/26/2007 3:03:00 AM
        
        re: Robert Zubrin is an aerospace engineer like me. - EnergyExpert - 1/26/2007 6:41:51 PM
        
        Hence my prediction. - SDF - 1/27/2007 5:44:55 AM
        
        Radical Environmentalists have… - EnergyExpert - 1/27/2007 4:27:12 PM
        
        True. - SDF - 1/27/2007 10:53:49 PM
        
        re: True. - EnergyExpert - 1/28/2007 9:20:30 PM
        
        Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. - SDF - 1/29/2007 4:10:20 AM
        
        re: Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. - EnergyExpert - 1/29/2007 5:02:46 PM
        
        Home? Mass vs local... - nick hoffman - 1/30/2007 3:25:08 PM
        
        re: Home? Mass vs local... - EnergyExpert - 1/31/2007 6:06:40 PM
        
        Yes. And I'm not certain hydrogen can be stored safely at 10,000 psi - SDF - 1/31/2007 2:21:19 AM
        
        re: Yes. And I'm not certain hydrogen can be stored safely at 10,000 psi - Yeti - 2/1/2007 12:17:51 AM
        
        re: Yes. And I'm not certain hydrogen can be stored safely at 10,000 psi - EnergyExpert - 2/1/2007 5:45:18 AM
        
        re: Yes. And I'm not certain hydrogen can be stored safely at 10,000 psi - Net Crank Munching Yeti - 2/1/2007 6:52:35 AM
        
        Aww hell, you just had to go and piss off the Yeti.... - Arrell - 2/1/2007 11:21:30 AM
        
        re: And in 4 weeks! - EnergyExpert - 1/31/2007 6:38:19 PM
        
        Wrong! - EnergyExpert - 1/31/2007 6:10:23 PM
        
        Compressing hydrogen to 10,000 psi uses up 15% of the energy being stored. - SDF - 2/1/2007 12:17:15 AM
        
        re: Compressing hydrogen to 10,000 psi uses up 15% of the energy being stored. - EnergyExpert - 2/1/2007 6:00:20 AM
        
        re: Compressing hydrogen to 10,000 psi uses up 15% of the energy being stored. - Yeti - 2/1/2007 7:07:53 AM
        
        re: Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. - gbaikie - 1/29/2007 6:05:43 AM
        
        And the hydrogen cars are also just prototypes. - SDF - 1/29/2007 4:13:24 AM
        
        Its about freedom - EnergyExpert - 1/29/2007 5:19:34 PM
        
        THAT is nothing more than a sales pitch - SDF - 2/1/2007 1:51:29 AM
        
        re: THAT is nothing more than a sales pitch - EnergyExpert - 2/1/2007 6:03:25 AM
        
        The CLEVER car research at the U. of Bath was funded by BMW - SDF - 2/1/2007 10:03:16 PM
  - Perhaps a reference link to your supporting material would be instructive here. (n/t) - lEThargy expert - 1/23/2007 11:55:30 PM
    - re: Perhaps a reference link to your supporting material would be instructive here. - EnergyExpert - 1/25/2007 5:50:22 AM
      - Ah, ok. - et - 1/25/2007 6:25:43 AM
        
        re: Ah, ok. - EnergyExpert - 1/25/2007 4:11:43 PM
- I think the Hydrogen economy will be great.... - et - 1/23/2007 6:58:26 PM
  - re: I think the Hydrogen economy will be great.... - Ken Murphy - 1/24/2007 2:41:29 AM
    - Sun juice for my Hummer? - et - 1/24/2007 5:12:21 AM
  - re: I think the Hydrogen economy will be great.... - father earth - 1/23/2007 9:39:16 PM
- re: Robert Zubrin blasts the "Hydrogen Economy" - father earth - 1/23/2007 6:20:24 PM
  - I think it depends on the application. - Scott Evil - 1/23/2007 11:33:12 PM
  - Well, at least he's optimistic about ethanol - Daniel - 1/23/2007 6:47:26 PM

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