This deserves to be read again.

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This deserves to be read again.

Mary Anne — 1/30/2006 1:31:36 AM (archived)

So I'll quote back what I believe is the heart of your post:

I criticize my country because it is my country. I expect great things from it. I do not expect it to have its behavior governed by the worst in the world any more than I allowed my children to use the â€œeverybodyâ€™s doing itâ€ excuse. Were I Israeli or Iraqi or Afghan I would hope I would be protesting the Israeli, Iraqi or Afghan brutalities. I would be much more critical of dishonesty in my own family than I would in yours, take far stronger action, be much more disappointed.

Thanks for this, and for the rest of your eloquent statement of principled opposition to brutality.

The whole thread (160 posts)

I have become convinced that Bowser doesn't read posts here - R.L. - 1/29/2006 6:54:34 AM
- Oh, for God's Sake!!! - Bowser - 1/29/2006 11:23:18 PM
- not hoped.. - FrankC - 1/29/2006 7:06:42 PM
- re:Sorry, but.... - Raoul - 1/29/2006 11:03:28 AM
  - re: re:Sorry, but.... - REB - 1/30/2006 7:09:02 PM
    - I've said it before... - Scott Evil - 1/30/2006 11:16:03 PM
      - re: The space program (n/t) - Raoul - 2/1/2006 9:53:20 PM
        
        re: Sorry Raoul. - Scott Evil - 2/3/2006 2:40:30 AM
      - Yo Evil! - Lindy - 1/30/2006 11:57:31 PM
    - "He hates anything that America does.........." - Lindy - 1/30/2006 7:58:12 PM
      - Has he anything good to say about America? - REB - 1/30/2006 8:10:38 PM
        
        re: Where exactly do you imagine this is happening? (n/t) - Chris Vancil - 1/31/2006 9:13:55 AM
        
        It has actually happened in Iraq. (n/t) - REB - 1/31/2006 3:02:37 PM
        
        re: You must have a very different meaning to free society than most people on Earth. Iraq will soon be either a smaller Iran or a messy civil war. No Free Society made or planned there. (n/t) - Chris Vancil - 1/31/2006 10:42:07 PM
        
        We shall see, Chris. We shall see. - REB - 1/31/2006 10:50:41 PM
        
        Yes, we will see and being an Optimist has nothing to do with the facts at play here! - Chris Vancil - 2/1/2006 10:47:24 AM
        
        Clan, tribes, religion - Lindy - 2/1/2006 5:48:11 PM
        
        How can Iraq be a "free society"? - Lindy - 2/1/2006 12:21:15 AM
        
        Yes. - Mary Anne - 1/31/2006 12:01:15 AM
        
        The big question is... - SDAI-Tech1 - 1/31/2006 12:33:43 AM
        
        The mote in your eye - Robert - 1/31/2006 4:54:03 PM
        
        Rhetoric versus Reality - SDAI-Tech1 - 2/1/2006 1:44:16 AM
        
        Rhetoric - Robert - 2/1/2006 5:54:45 AM
        
        War & Peace - SDAI-Tech1 - 2/1/2006 10:17:50 AM
        
        They should be grateful when we invade them! (n/t) - alcaray - 2/1/2006 9:23:46 PM
        
        Many are. I remember the Iraqi kissing the GI...but it's easy to... - SDAI-Tech1 - 2/2/2006 3:05:52 AM
        
        re: War & Peace - Lindy - 2/1/2006 5:55:56 PM
        
        Warren Piece - Robert - 2/1/2006 5:24:30 PM
        
        Ideals can only be demonstrated. - Mary Anne - 1/31/2006 1:18:25 PM
        
        Get off your soapbox Tech 1 - Lindy - 1/31/2006 12:47:12 AM
        
        If the US is now so awful..why live here? - SDAI-Tech1 - 1/31/2006 6:04:39 AM
        
        re: If the US is now so awful..why live here? - Lindy - 1/31/2006 4:48:16 PM
        
        "The US is beautiful.........from sea to shining sea." - Hallelujah! ;-) (n/t) - SDAI-Tech1 - 2/2/2006 3:21:49 AM
        
        Are you having another ephinany SDAI-Tech? - Lindy - 2/2/2006 4:52:07 AM
        
        LOL! "America: Love It or Leave It"? Only one thing to say to that... - Mary Anne - 1/31/2006 1:40:39 PM
        
        Asking someone why they remain is not the same as asking them to leave. ;-) (n/t) - SDAI-Tech1 - 2/2/2006 3:20:23 AM
        
        Not grammatically, no. - Mary Anne - 2/2/2006 3:20:19 PM
        
        Gawd, are you brainwashed or what?? - Lindy - 1/31/2006 12:00:41 AM
        
        Maybe, but then, it may be you that is brainwashed. - REB - 1/31/2006 1:11:19 PM
        
        re: That is exactly what colonial countries said - Raoul - 2/2/2006 9:24:18 AM
        
        "Spreading Freedom?" - Lindy - 1/31/2006 4:40:59 PM
        
        WMD - REB - 1/31/2006 5:01:10 PM
        
        Yes - REB - 1/31/2006 4:51:33 PM
        
        Save your fingers (n/t) - Sam F. - 2/1/2006 4:02:42 AM
        
        re: Maybe, but then, it may be you that is brainwashed. - REB - 1/31/2006 1:56:55 PM
  - Forgive them, Raoul, they know not what they do. - Bowser - 1/29/2006 10:54:54 PM
  - The Germans were not chased out of Belgium by diplomacy. (n/t) - Tom Brosz - 1/29/2006 10:27:15 PM
    - re: The Germans had been the invaders (n/t) - Raoul - 1/30/2006 6:42:03 AM
      - Just as Iraq (Saddam) were the invaders of Kuwait. (nt) (n/t) - REB - 1/30/2006 7:33:19 PM
        
        re: Exactly and Bush father did the right thing, approved by the international community - Raoul - 1/30/2006 8:09:19 PM
        
        So you are on record saying you supported the 1st Gulf War? - Scott Evil - 1/30/2006 11:18:36 PM
        
        I think Bush Sr. screwed up. He should have taken Saddam out. - REB - 1/30/2006 8:14:03 PM
        
        re: I think Bush Sr. screwed up. He should have taken Saddam out. - Lindy - 1/31/2006 12:48:55 AM
        
        You're not the only one who felt that way. - SDAI-Tech1 - 1/30/2006 10:34:18 PM
        
        9/11 was the work of Saudis. SAUDIS. - Mary Anne - 1/31/2006 2:25:10 PM
    - I believe Raoul's point is that the Germans were no more invited into Belgium than we were invited into Iraq. - Mary Anne - 1/30/2006 1:34:27 AM
      - Okay, if we're going in that direction... - Tom Brosz - 1/30/2006 5:44:17 PM
        
        The USSR had already entered Germany from the other direction. - Mary Anne - 1/30/2006 6:35:37 PM
        
        That doesn't change the issue at all. - Tom Brosz - 1/30/2006 7:35:44 PM
        
        If you wish to fight on the battlefield of history, you must deal with the facts as they are. - Mary Anne - 1/31/2006 2:07:23 PM
        
        Playing (only slight) DA - Tony - 1/30/2006 9:09:40 PM
        
        Hitler was... - SDAI-Tech1 - 1/30/2006 9:27:31 PM
        
        Can't tell if that post was wistful or not....... - Tony - 1/31/2006 6:03:34 PM
        
        Wistful of what? - SDAI-Tech1 - 2/1/2006 10:46:37 PM
        
        re: Playing (only slight) DA - REB - 1/30/2006 9:27:27 PM
        
        "Are you sure Hitler was a threat to the rest of the world."(?) - Robert - 1/31/2006 6:17:08 PM
        
        re: Rockets - Raoul - 1/30/2006 9:34:57 PM
        
        re: Rockets - REB - 1/30/2006 9:42:25 PM
        
        Nuking the US - absurd - azstrummer - 1/30/2006 11:01:34 PM
        
        09-10-01, Terrorist bringing down the WTC buildings. Absurd! (n/t) - REB - 1/31/2006 1:09:03 PM
        
        It was predicted and easy to see coming - azstrummer - 1/31/2006 9:26:36 PM
        
        re: It was predicted and easy to see coming - REB - 1/31/2006 9:35:18 PM
        
        Only absurd if your name is Condaleeza....... (n/t) - Tony - 1/31/2006 5:57:24 PM
        
        Not absurd - predicted. - Laurie Street - 1/31/2006 5:57:18 PM
        
        Pre-9/11. had you told some one two Jets were going to take down the WTC buildings, they would not have believed you. - REB - 1/31/2006 6:06:21 PM
        
        re: In 1994 - Raoul - 1/31/2006 7:28:57 PM
        
        Oh for Pete's sake. - Tony - 1/31/2006 6:14:24 PM
        
        re: Oh for Pete's sake. - REB - 1/31/2006 6:39:25 PM
        
        Which thread are you reading? - Tony - 1/31/2006 8:42:19 PM
        
        re: Which thread are you reading? - REB - 1/31/2006 9:02:13 PM
        
        re: Which thread are you reading? - azstrummer - 1/31/2006 9:57:16 PM
        
        re: Which thread are you reading? - REB - 1/31/2006 10:15:30 PM
        
        re: Which thread are you reading? - azstrummer - 2/1/2006 4:57:05 PM
        
        re: But Saddam was not left alone after 1991! (n/t) - Raoul - 1/30/2006 10:16:06 PM
        
        Those watching him were corrupt. - REB - 1/30/2006 10:40:03 PM
        
        re: Those watching him were soldiers, not politicians - Raoul - 1/31/2006 5:27:41 PM
        
        And they did a lousy job - REB - 1/31/2006 5:39:17 PM
        
        Sure by 1951...maybe. - SDAI-Tech1 - 1/30/2006 9:39:08 PM
        
        Good to see you Mary Anne - McFly - 1/30/2006 7:22:08 PM
        
        re: The USSR had already entered Germany from the other direction. - REB - 1/30/2006 7:21:10 PM
        
        re: re:Because the UN is about international law and respect of sovereignty of states (n/t) - Raoul - 1/30/2006 8:13:28 PM
        
        Maybe sovereignty should belong to the people, not any murderous dictator who seizes power? (n/t) - Sam F. - 1/31/2006 5:25:22 AM
        
        Speaking of Dubya... - Robert - 2/1/2006 10:29:34 PM
        
        Sovereignty is sovereignty. You need to change the UN charter if you want them to prohibit right wing autocracies.us dictator who seizes power? (n/t) - alcaray - 1/31/2006 4:10:26 PM
        
        Yep - Sam F. - 2/1/2006 3:57:57 AM
        
        Pretty dangerous tendency to mob rule these days. - alcaray - 2/1/2006 4:48:57 PM
        
        re: Sovereignty is sovereignty. You need to change the UN charter if you want them to prohibit right wing autocracies.us dictator who seizes power? - REB - 1/31/2006 4:38:11 PM
        
        And about funneling money to Saddam for "Oil for Food". LOL! (n/t) - SDAI-Tech1 - 1/30/2006 9:42:55 PM
        
        I still do not see the difference between what Hitler did to France and what Saddam did to Kuwait - REB - 1/30/2006 8:16:31 PM
        
        The difference is the chance of success - azstrummer - 1/30/2006 11:18:23 PM
        
        Getting rid of Hitler was more costly to America than getting rid of Saddam will ever be. - REB - 1/31/2006 1:17:35 PM
        
        re:Geopolitics - Raoul - 1/30/2006 8:37:21 PM
      - Moral equivalence is wonderful isn't it? - SDAI-Tech1 - 1/30/2006 5:46:35 AM
        
        You wouldn't know a "cock-eyed" view if it bit you - Lindy - 1/30/2006 5:19:43 PM
        
        is "moral equivalence" your new default sloganeering? - Publius - 1/30/2006 2:43:11 PM
        
        Nowhere did I say that Hitler's Germany = Bush's, um, Washington. - Mary Anne - 1/30/2006 2:22:33 PM
    - We asked VERY nicely... (n/t) - R.L. - 1/30/2006 1:01:06 AM
  - Black and White - Buck Galaxy - 1/29/2006 9:43:37 PM
    - Both - And v. Black and White, Either - Or", and "but". - Bowser - 1/31/2006 4:58:58 AM
      - re: Both - And v. Black and White, Either - Or", and "but". - Buck Galaxy - 2/1/2006 4:33:33 AM
        
        As I explained - I am an American. And here's the crux. - Bowser - 2/1/2006 6:38:22 AM
        
        re: As I explained - I am an American. And here's the crux. - Buck Galaxy - 2/1/2006 7:33:24 AM
        
        Blinded by the light. - Bowser - 2/1/2006 3:45:12 PM
        
        Let me back up - Buck Galaxy - 2/1/2006 4:36:58 PM
    - re: Black and White - REB - 1/30/2006 7:18:13 PM
    - A partial answer to CE - Bowser - 1/29/2006 9:53:37 PM
      - War gave you your freedom - REB - 1/30/2006 7:25:19 PM
        
        Courage gave us freedom. - Mary Anne - 1/31/2006 1:55:36 PM
        
        re: Courage gave us freedom. - REB - 1/31/2006 2:11:07 PM
        
        America, with the germ of our democratic institutions, was formed by its colonial experience. - Mary Anne - 1/31/2006 2:34:02 PM
        
        But it still took a War to get Independence from the British - REB - 1/31/2006 4:29:06 PM
        
        re: But it still took a War to get Independence from the British - Laurie Street - 1/31/2006 6:02:01 PM
        
        I doubt it would have happened had America not won her independence from Brittan. - REB - 1/31/2006 6:13:48 PM
        
        How did India and Australia and others get there? - Laurie Street - 1/31/2006 8:10:58 PM
        
        re: How did India and Australia and others get there? - REB - 1/31/2006 9:07:32 PM
        
        Yes, Robert, there was a Revolution... - Mary Anne - 1/31/2006 5:53:55 PM
        
        re: Yes, Robert, there was a Revolution... - REB - 1/31/2006 6:41:51 PM
      - Not bad - Buck Galaxy - 1/30/2006 5:34:30 PM
        
        um, Buck... - Mary Anne - 1/30/2006 5:47:10 PM
        
        re: um, Mary Anne - Buck Galaxy - 1/31/2006 5:14:12 AM
        
        Intent vs. volume - Mary Anne - 1/31/2006 1:32:29 PM
        
        re: Intent vs. volume - Buck Galaxy - 2/1/2006 1:20:45 AM
        
        re: um, Mary Anne... - Tom Brosz - 1/30/2006 7:31:30 PM
        
        um, Tom.....Two can play that game - Tony - 1/30/2006 9:16:18 PM
        
        Are you saying everyone has a but? Shocking! (n/t) - SDAI-Tech1 - 1/30/2006 9:33:24 PM
        
        Hey, I'm not going to knock it too much - SDAI-Tech1 - 1/30/2006 9:13:01 PM
        
        Go get some fresh air, Tech 1 - Lindy - 1/31/2006 12:05:06 AM
      - Well said, sir. (n/t) - Laurie Street - 1/30/2006 4:56:06 PM
      - Excellent answer - Robert - 1/30/2006 5:16:48 AM
      - This deserves to be read again. - Mary Anne - 1/30/2006 1:31:36 AM
        
        pretty articulate for someone described as "You are an incoherent, unthinking partisan hack..". - Publius - 1/30/2006 2:55:30 PM
        
        The Power of Belief - SDAI-Tech1 - 1/30/2006 4:36:32 AM
        
        The Power of Hyperbole - Mary Anne - 1/30/2006 2:26:37 PM
        
        Criticism & dissatisfaction versus escape mechanisms - SDAI-Tech1 - 1/30/2006 9:00:04 PM
        
        "Each individual carries their own unique cross to Calgary" - Lindy - 1/31/2006 12:08:06 AM
        
        No one carries a cross to Calgary. They aren't any use at the rodeo. - Mary Anne - 1/31/2006 12:07:19 AM
        
        Making Most of Mixed Metaphors - SDAI-Tech1 - 1/31/2006 12:19:31 AM
      - Thank you Bowser...........clap, clap, clap - Lindy - 1/30/2006 1:20:14 AM
  - What a load of crap... - R.L. - 1/29/2006 9:26:34 PM
    - re: Playing the devil's advocate - Raoul - 1/30/2006 5:42:09 PM
    - clearly you are wrong..... - Publius - 1/30/2006 3:19:36 PM
      - "Inclusive Left." Now THAT'S funny. - Tom Brosz - 1/30/2006 5:54:55 PM
    - do you leave your brians on the mountain top every day? - Lindy - 1/30/2006 1:21:31 AM
      - No, you airhead - R.L. - 1/30/2006 1:41:23 AM
        
        Sorry, meant BRAINS, (not brians) - Lindy - 1/30/2006 3:07:50 AM
        
        re: Anf he had a strange sense of humor! the logic of a machine (n/t) - Raoul - 1/30/2006 8:39:55 PM
        
        Brian the Brain was a Space 1999 episode - REB - 1/30/2006 7:55:52 PM
        
        Doesn't have any brians, Lindy. - Bowser - 1/30/2006 5:04:32 AM
        
        You are insane - R.L. - 1/30/2006 5:23:26 AM
  - Thanks Raoul for sharing that story - Lindy - 1/29/2006 6:33:52 PM

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